amortizoare mono versus bitubulare

[u2_2]

Stiu ca exista aceasta clasificare a amortizoarelor, dupa constructia lor.

Imi poate spune cineva care sunt avantajele si dezavantajele fiecarui tip de amortizor, mono/ bitubular ?

[roly]

Re: amortizoare mono versus bitubulare

 

Amortizoarele monotub sunt mult mai rezistente decat cele bitubulare, se folosesc de obicei ca si variante de "tuning" pt off road, competitii gen Baja s.a.m.d

Cele bitubulare sunt mai usor si mai ieftin de fabricat dar nu ofera acelasi nivel de fiabilitate ca si cele monotub.

 

Filmuletele de mai sus cu siguranta o sa te lamureasca.

Numai bine:wink:

[u2_2]

Re: amortizoare mono versus bitubulare

 

Multumesc !

[maurizio]

Re: amortizoare mono versus bitubulare

 

Amortizoarele monotub sunt mult mai rezistente decat cele bitubulare, se folosesc de obicei ca si variante de "tuning" pt off road, competitii gen Baja s.a.m.d

Cele bitubulare sunt mai usor si mai ieftin de fabricat dar nu ofera acelasi nivel de fiabilitate ca si cele monotub.

 

Filmuletele de mai sus cu siguranta o sa te lamureasca.

Numai bine:wink:

 

esti sigur de ce spuni???

o mica lovitura pe corp exterior la monotub a terminat capacitate de lucrare a supapelor ..... de unde spuni ca este mai resistente???

resistenta a amortizoarele este diferita in functie de construtie lor, materiale grosime etc, dar in orice caz nu esta datorita solutie tecnica alesa:

monotub sau bitub.

la competitie de gen baja ( internationale ) se foloseste tecnologia extrema si pt amortizoarele si intram in discutile prea complicate ( si care in gen. nu are legatura cu mono sau Bitub)

au am construit amortizoarele de off road si te garantez ca solutia tecnica

mai buna este bi tub, pt ca :

1) supapele sunt protejate de loviture externe ( des intalnite la off road)

2) tecnica bitub ajuta la racire si la nu emulsionare ulei cu aer

3) Numai cu tecnica bitub poti sa intri in faze urmatoare cu gaz separat si reservore de reglaj si compensare

[u2_2]

Re: amortizoare mono versus bitubulare

 

ok, am vazut ca Bilstein se lauda cu progresele lor in monotub, dar pe de alta parte laudatele ProComp ES9000 sunt bitubulare.

 

Eu sunt intr-o dilema, vreau sa schimb amortizoarele pe Korando, si nu stiu spre ce sa ma orientez.

Ce spune Maurizio este corect in ce priveste loviturile, dar totusi de ce se spune ca cele monotub sunt mai durabile\fiabile?

[roly]

Re: amortizoare mono versus bitubulare

 

Uite cam pe aici am citit eu, draga Maurizio. Eu nu zic nici pe departe ca sunt un cunoscator al mecanicii dar cei ce scriu in linkurile de mai jos nu cred ca pot fi contestati. Baietii dovedesc clar si alb/negru ca amortizorul monotub este net superior celui bitub:

http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=205584

 

" Most real race dampers these days are mono-tube. Advantages are:

1) larger piston means it's more sensitive to small movements

2) cooler running since the fluid is in contact with the outer damper body

3) probably others minor ones"

 

http://www.tein.co.jp/e/special/ni_toryu/index.html

 

4. Mono-tube for the Circuit.

Next let’s compare them for the circuit. For the street, the mono-tube’s demerits stand out, but on the circuit, its full potential is exhibited.

Let’s take a look back at the merits of the mono-tube.

 

*Stable damping force can be generated, because of the larger oil capacity and improved heat dissipation.

*The larger sized piston valve creates a wider area to receive pressure, and even microscopic damping force can be achieved.

*The structure allows no restrictions in installation angles.

*Oil radiates heat easier as the temperature increases.

*Aeration doesn’t occur because oil and gas are completely separated.

 

For the shock absorber, racing on a circuit is an extremely rigorous environment.

When racing continuously for long hours, the shock absorber, itself will generate a lot of heat. The nearby brake gives off even more, generating heat close to 1000 degrees. The shock absorber feels the full effects of this heat.

For this reason, even when driven hard for long hours, it is vital for circuit shock absorbers to perform consistently. So it’s the mono-tube’s merits that are naturally suited for hard driven circuits.

The stroke problem is not really a concern at the circuit because the flat surfaces and high spring rates don’t require as much stroke action as on the street.

This is why the mono-tube design is better suited for the circuit.

 

 

The twin-tube design....

 

*Structurally, the oil capacity is lower than the mono-tube.

*Structurally, the piston valve cannot be larger than that of the mono-tube.

*Structurally, the shell case cannot be inverted for strut type suspension.

*Aeration may occur because the oil and gas chambers are not separated.

 

http://www.ek9.org/forum/suspension/4741-mono-tube-twin-tube-suspension-info-tein.html

[Sefulik]

Re: amortizoare mono versus bitubulare

 

Uite cam pe aici am citit eu, draga Maurizio. Eu nu zic nici pe departe ca sunt un cunoscator al mecanicii dar cei ce scriu in linkurile de mai jos nu cred ca pot fi contestati. Baietii dovedesc clar si alb/negru ca amortizorul monotub este net superior celui bitub:

http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=205584

 

" Most real race dampers these days are mono-tube. Advantages are:

1) larger piston means it's more sensitive to small movements

2) cooler running since the fluid is in contact with the outer damper body

3) probably others minor ones"

 

http://www.tein.co.jp/e/special/ni_toryu/index.html

 

4. Mono-tube for the Circuit.

Next let’s compare them for the circuit. For the street, the mono-tube’s demerits stand out, but on the circuit, its full potential is exhibited.

Let’s take a look back at the merits of the mono-tube.

 

*Stable damping force can be generated, because of the larger oil capacity and improved heat dissipation.

*The larger sized piston valve creates a wider area to receive pressure, and even microscopic damping force can be achieved.

*The structure allows no restrictions in installation angles.

*Oil radiates heat easier as the temperature increases.

*Aeration doesn’t occur because oil and gas are completely separated.

 

For the shock absorber, racing on a circuit is an extremely rigorous environment.

When racing continuously for long hours, the shock absorber, itself will generate a lot of heat. The nearby brake gives off even more, generating heat close to 1000 degrees. The shock absorber feels the full effects of this heat.

For this reason, even when driven hard for long hours, it is vital for circuit shock absorbers to perform consistently. So it’s the mono-tube’s merits that are naturally suited for hard driven circuits.

The stroke problem is not really a concern at the circuit because the flat surfaces and high spring rates don’t require as much stroke action as on the street.

This is why the mono-tube design is better suited for the circuit.

 

 

The twin-tube design....

 

*Structurally, the oil capacity is lower than the mono-tube.

*Structurally, the piston valve cannot be larger than that of the mono-tube.

*Structurally, the shell case cannot be inverted for strut type suspension.

*Aeration may occur because the oil and gas chambers are not separated.

 

http://www.ek9.org/forum/suspension/4741-mono-tube-twin-tube-suspension-info-tein.html

 

In teren nu prea gasesti ce e mai sus cu portocaliu. Din ce-am vazut eu pe aici,se discuta de simex,punti,portale nu de slick-uri.

[maurizio]

Re: amortizoare mono versus bitubulare

 

Uite cam pe aici am citit eu, draga Maurizio. Eu nu zic nici pe departe ca sunt un cunoscator al mecanicii dar cei ce scriu in linkurile de mai jos nu cred ca pot fi contestati. Baietii dovedesc clar si alb/negru ca amortizorul monotub este net superior celui bitub:

http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=205584

 

" Most real race dampers these days are mono-tube. Advantages are:

1) larger piston means it's more sensitive to small movements

2) cooler running since the fluid is in contact with the outer damper body

3) probably others minor ones"

 

http://www.tein.co.jp/e/special/ni_toryu/index.html

 

4. Mono-tube for the Circuit.

Next let’s compare them for the circuit. For the street, the mono-tube’s demerits stand out, but on the circuit, its full potential is exhibited.

Let’s take a look back at the merits of the mono-tube.

 

*Stable damping force can be generated, because of the larger oil capacity and improved heat dissipation.

*The larger sized piston valve creates a wider area to receive pressure, and even microscopic damping force can be achieved.

*The structure allows no restrictions in installation angles.

*Oil radiates heat easier as the temperature increases.

*Aeration doesn’t occur because oil and gas are completely separated.

 

For the shock absorber, racing on a circuit is an extremely rigorous environment.

When racing continuously for long hours, the shock absorber, itself will generate a lot of heat. The nearby brake gives off even more, generating heat close to 1000 degrees. The shock absorber feels the full effects of this heat.

For this reason, even when driven hard for long hours, it is vital for circuit shock absorbers to perform consistently. So it’s the mono-tube’s merits that are naturally suited for hard driven circuits.

The stroke problem is not really a concern at the circuit because the flat surfaces and high spring rates don’t require as much stroke action as on the street.

This is why the mono-tube design is better suited for the circuit.

 

 

The twin-tube design....

 

*Structurally, the oil capacity is lower than the mono-tube.

*Structurally, the piston valve cannot be larger than that of the mono-tube.

*Structurally, the shell case cannot be inverted for strut type suspension.

*Aeration may occur because the oil and gas chambers are not separated.

 

http://www.ek9.org/forum/suspension/4741-mono-tube-twin-tube-suspension-info-tein.html

 

 

Roly .... nu te supera. Habar nu ai de ce vorbim!

 

eu incerc sa fac cu prieteni din forum discutie COSTRUCTIVE cu in spate sau experienta personale( care poate sa fie constestata de oricine abia ceva de spus) sau din legi fisice , in orice caz legate de domeniu off road!!!

 

nu are sens sa discutam de cat de buni sunt amortizoare de formula 1 pe o masina de off road CARE EVIDENT NU ARE CE SE CAUTA ACOLO!!!!

maurizio

[maurizio]

Re: amortizoare mono versus bitubulare

 

ok, am vazut ca Bilstein se lauda cu progresele lor in monotub, dar pe de alta parte laudatele ProComp ES9000 sunt bitubulare.

 

Eu sunt intr-o dilema, vreau sa schimb amortizoarele pe Korando, si nu stiu spre ce sa ma orientez.

Ce spune Maurizio este corect in ce priveste loviturile, dar totusi de ce se spune ca cele monotub sunt mai durabile\fiabile?

 

Salutare,

dilema este mai mare de atat...

mono tub, bitub

ulei gaz

tipur de gaz

marime exterior

marime ax

supape

reservor sau nu....

da ca vrei un sfat :

amortizoare bitub cu gaz

eu am Raw 4x4 cu azot si garantez ca te gasesti bine.

maurizio

[maurizio]

Re: amortizoare mono versus bitubulare

 

Roly .... nu te supera. Habar nu ai de ce vorbim!

 

eu incerc sa fac cu prieteni din forum discutie COSTRUCTIVE cu in spate sau experienta personale( care poate sa fie constestata de oricine abia ceva de spus) sau din legi fisice , in orice caz legate de domeniu off road!!!

 

nu are sens sa discutam de cat de buni sunt amortizoare de formula 1 pe o masina de off road CARE EVIDENT NU ARE CE SE CAUTA ACOLO!!!!

maurizio

 

 

Si am de spus ca NU AM NIMIC CU TINE da ca ma permiti sa vorbim cu tu.

apreciez ce faci si ma place calitate lucraile tale. DAR nu prea ai conustinte sau experienta in domeniu suspensie.

te rog nu te supara, nu asta este intentia mea!!!

nu ma place sa vad sfatuit cineva numai din citit pe net ( si gresit).

Off Road este off road si circuit este circuit!!!

fiecare are exigente diferite si nu le amestecam.

maurizio

[roly]

Re: amortizoare mono versus bitubulare

 

Roly .... nu te supera. Habar nu ai de ce vorbim!

 

eu incerc sa fac cu prieteni din forum discutie COSTRUCTIVE cu in spate sau experienta personale( care poate sa fie constestata de oricine abia ceva de spus) sau din legi fisice , in orice caz legate de domeniu off road!!!

 

nu are sens sa discutam de cat de buni sunt amortizoare de formula 1 pe o masina de off road CARE EVIDENT NU ARE CE SE CAUTA ACOLO!!!!

maurizio

Murizio nu ma supar deloc, dar cand peste tot gasesti scris ca INCLUSIV in off road sunt de preferat amortizoarele monotub!

Monroe advennture un amortizor pt off road este monotub? ca si multe altele.

 

Off-road' shock absorbers

For off-road vehicle applications, Monroe also recently introduced a new aftermarket shock absorber for all-wheel drive vehicles named the 'Adventure'. The Adventure is said to be capable of delivering off-road performance without sacrificing on-road capability. The mono-tube design allows maximum airflow to the shock absorber to reduce the heat that commonly reduces the performance of liquid dampers, by losing rigidity, reducing rebound damping and damaging seals. The design also allows the use of a larger than usual piston which is more sensitive to wheel movement, with a further floating piston that separates the oil from a chamber filled with nitrogen pressured at 360psi. This arrangement eliminates contact between gas and oil, which conventionally results in foaming and uneven operation. During the compression stroke the man piston reduces the area available to the oil which compresses the nitrogen; on the rebound stroke the piston rod moves out again and the gas gently pushes the floating piston back.

Japan's Unisia Jecs has also developed a new shock absorber that absorbs all vibrations that conventional hydraulic shock absorbers cannot control. A rubber ring is fitted inside the piston cylinder and when the piston is moving slowly, friction created by the rubber ring absorbs tiny vibrations and when the piston movement is faster, the rubber ring stops producing friction and enables conventional hydraulics to work.

 

Twin Tube Shocks

 

Intended as a factory-style replacement, twin tube shock absorbers have remained a dependable and long-lasting option for several decades.

The base design revolves around hydraulic oil and nitrogen gas. The oil dampens shock while nitrogen gas is pressurized (100 PSI or lower) to help prevent foaming of the liquid. Softer valving also makes these shock absorbers more cost-efficient to make.

All in all, Twin Tube Shocks represent an excellent value for the street grinder or occasional mild off road enthusiast, and are often known to be factory original equipment in many domestic passenger cars and trucks.

 

Monotube Shocks

 

These shocks offer closer tolerances in a monotube design that produces both cooler operation temperatures, and better resistance to the rigors of racing or off road driving.

Monotube shocks are typically high pressured around 200-350 PSI, while hydraulic fluid and nitrogen gas are relegated to separate chambers, divided by a floating piston to reduce foaming.

The end result is a set of shock absorbers with more controlled valving, making them ideal for racing and off road use, and are even used in many professional racing circuits like NASCAR and Formula One, and are quite common in performance vehicles.

Reservoir Shocks

 

Reservoir shock absorbers offer many of the same benefits and features as Monotube shocks, but with a few extra twists.

Built with an added fluid reservoir, these shocks offer less cavitation with enhanced cooling ability. In essence, these shocks will maintain top-tier performance for extended periods, even in hardcore off road situations.

As an added bonus, nothing beats the look of Reservoir Shocks. The impressive and slick dual shock-mount look is a surefire style statement of any off road enthusiast.

Popular Reservoir Shocks include: Bilstein, Pro Comp, Fox, and Fabtech.

 

 

The AUS high pressure gas monotube shock absorbers exhibit a number of characteristics for 4WD applications which set them apart from current twin tube design shock absorbers.

The AUS high pressure gas mono tube shock absorbers react more positively to small suspension movements making them more suitable for use in the limited travel situation of torsion bar equipped vehicles.

The huge piston diameter at the monotube construction allows The AUS to run cooler in demanding situations such as high speed and corrugated road cruising. Their resistance to fade and resistance to cavitation makes The AUS Mono Tube Gas Shock Absorbers an ideal shock absorber for towing and high load applications.

 

The AUS Mono Tube Gas Shock Absorbers are rebuildable at our Sydney facility where tailored valving changes to specific needs can be carried out. As with all other Ultimate shock absorbers. every AUS Mono Tube Gas Shock Absorbers is developed as a matched partner with each vehicle's Ultimate springs through many hours of painstaking development and field trials. AUS Mono Tube Gas Shock Absorbers sets world standards in gas pressure innovation and design

 

Si aici scrie negru pe alb. Poate ca eu sunt in afara, dar atata timp cat peste tot unde cauti vezi clar avantajele amortizoarelor monotub vs bitubulare nu prea mai am ce spune. Si nu numai in formula1 cum spui tu ci si in offroad cum scrie clar mai sus.

Asa ca sa lasam talentele de oparte. Daca gresesc chiar te rog Maurizio sa imi spui exact unde si cum nu de alta dar vreau sa invat ceva si accept cu draga inima orice atata timp cat se vine cu explicatii concrete, de genul de ce ceea ce este scris mai sus este gresit?

[maurizio]

Re: amortizoare mono versus bitubulare

 

Buna

atunci, dupa parere

mea nu trebuie sa citesti publicitate de la anumita firma, care produce amortizoare monotub si explica ca sunt cei mai buni.

 

dupa parere mea bitub este mai bun :

 

1) parete exterior nu are treaba cu supape si in caz de lovitura externa nu se strica, monotub nu mai poate sa lucreaze...... ASTA PT MINE DEJA AJUNGE CA NU FOLOSIM MASINILE NOASTRE IN CIRCUIT, si sunt posibili loviture la fiecare metro.

 

2) mono tub nu are posibilitate ( tecnic vorbim de amortizoare care ne permitem sa le punem pe masinile noastre, nu de amortizoare de mii de euro buc.) de a separa camasa de racire ( un fel de radiator al amortizoare) cu parte interior si asa necesita de reglaj mai gros ( sau mai putin fin) si respuns lor este mai sec. monotub pierde ( datorita incalzire) mai mult "reglaj" ca bitub

 

3) tecnologia monotub este putin mai simpla si nu are posibilitate de a misca in " camere " separate lichid /gaz/lichid.

 

eu am construit amortizoare monotub "BI LAND" din care ma laud .... dar pt ca nu am avut bani destul sa construiesc bitub..... care este net superioare!

si am patit problemele la loviture si la incalzire.... asa cum pateste un amortizoare de firma renumita.

am facut camasa exterior de 50 mm si de 76 mm.... am pus tije de 22 si de 24 de mm si am avut resultate bune dar .... la loviture .... PAC se ducea amortizoare!! si nu numai ai mei si celi de Firma.

cu asta cred ca am explicat parere mea si nu mai vreau sa poluez forum,

dar te propun ceva:

iai un amortizor ( care vrei tu) monotub , nou il dam o lovitura cu ciocan , cam 2,3,4 mm la jumatate lungime lui...

Facem acelasi lucru cu un amortizoare bitub si il punem pe o masina

vedem care lucreaze mai bine ( sau care mai lucreaze) si mai vorbim.

asa ca faptele si nu vorbe ne dimostreze cine are dreptate.

ciao

maurizio

[u2_2]

Re: amortizoare mono versus bitubulare

 

...eu am Raw 4x4 cu azot si garantez ca te gasesti bine.

maurizio

 

Multumesc, asta e o discutie separata, o sa o avem cand le cumpar.

 

In afara de sensibilitatea la lovituri, ce alte dezavantaje au?

[maurizio]

Re: amortizoare mono versus bitubulare

 

Multumesc, asta e o discutie separata, o sa o avem cand le cumpar.

 

In afara de sensibilitatea la lovituri, ce alte dezavantaje au?

explicatie un pic mai sus.